Woops some typos
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Posted by Babaganooj on May 13, 2000 at 23:24:08:
In Reply to: Re: A moment of joy! Now ....tell me... posted by Babaganooj on May 13, 2000 at 23:04:54:
Sorry, I'm not the best typist. Here are some corrections: euphrates is now in Arabic " furaat" rather than "futaat" also etymology rather than etynology also henna rather than heena. and the ones you find here and there that are syntactic, please forgive :-) as I hardly edit webboard postings:-) I should start doing that, though. Regards Babaganooj : First, I applaud the research you have been doing on this topic, : especially the sholarliness of the approach, you certainly : are way ahead of something I was going to suggest as well. : Mainly looking at how the root of the word of henna manifests : itself in other semitic languages. I do admit my limitations : when it comes to other semitic languages, and would point out : that Arabic is familiar grounds for me as a native speaker, as well : as maybe a little insight in its mechanisms. Other semitic languages : are areas of studies by themselves.
: I also would thank you for your research of other semitic : languages related to henna, for it really is enlightening, : and you know what, it further supports ( at least when it : comes to Arabic) maybe why there is a turn off for men regarding : its odor. Maybe its semantic reference (femininty as tenderness : is tied to in general) is a contributing factor as well. : Now here is also a point by point follow-up on your post. : Before that, I would like to attract your attention to the following : disclaimer. When it comes to Arabic, my judgement is that : of a native speaker with a little insight of its workings.when it : comes to others, this judgement is based on speculations. : : Definitely a moment of joy! : : Your discussion of the connection of henna and tenderness : : linguistically is one I've been looking at in the dictionary for : : ages....(the Wehr Arabic-English). Thank you, thank you! : : : : Now ..... if I can ask further..... : : Looks like in Ugaritic (2000 BCE Syria) the root for henna is KPR, : . : In fact the thing that comes to mind is the historic sound : change of P into F in some semitic languages (euphrates : river for example is now futaat in Arabic, and my guess : would be the plant Kafoor which has an effect similar : to what in the west is reffered to as Peter Salt. A substance : that contributes to alleviating sexual desire (Libido) : However, I would not be surprised to see the semantic shift : that sometimes happens here and there. An example of change : of meaning between semitic languages can be seen in Beit Lahem : for example (the house of bread=lahem) Now in Arabic Lahem : was later to undergo semantic change to mean meat. : Even within the same language semantic change has been : witnessed. Like in ancient (pre-Islamic) poetry the word : for wine is what we, Arabs, now use for coffee : What I am getting at here is to see if the root KPR after : having unergone sound change (KFR) and got into Arabic : might have also undergone semantic change. Certainly something : worth looking into. : : I'm guessing this is related to Kopher in ancient Egyptian and : Cyprium : : and Camphire in Latin. However the root for the word "red" in the : : Canaanite language is "chna" which I believe to be related to the : : Greek Kino for henna, and henna in the Semitic languages. Am I on : the : : right track here? : You are undoubtedly searching for the needle in the right : pile or sack. : : Here's a further hunch ..... which seems to have been tripping up : : scholars previously .... does the KPR root refer to the same plant : as : : CHNA? Is the difference because of the different linguistic : groups, : : or do the two words refer to the two different uses of the plant: : KPR : : referring to the flowers and perfume and CHNA referring to the : leaves : : used for dye? I found a Babylonian text that uses both, and in the : : context, it makes sense that both perfume and dye were being used : in : : the same preparation; that would incline me to believe that the two : : words expressing different uses of the same plant (like wheat and : : straw) . : To tell you the truth, I am not familiar with this, but I am : equally fascianted by the shift and change here and there : that some words might undergo. : What is also fascinating, and I'm sure it didn't escape your : attention is by looking deeply into those issues (etynology) : one would grasp the concept of henna throughout the ages, : such as "correlation with redness" a physical property, : tenderness " abstract property" etc..... : : Of course, after the 6th century and spread of Arabic with Islam, : : things get a whole heck of a lot simpler. : : I've been craving a good linguist to talk to about this for AGES! I : am : : absolutely thrilled to find someone to ask these questions to! : : I work with Arabic in henna patterns because that was part of henna : in : : the 10th to 15 centuries, (parallel to the calligraphy in art) and : I : : am fascinated with it, but I've never been any good at learning : other : : languages. I just try to copy without messing up. : Thank you for your compliments, and I would refer you back to : the disclaimer above. Keeping in mind that this topic : could be extensive as well, if you want to track down : heena use and utterance in each and every semitic language. : It will lead you into almost a research type analysis : that depending on the depth of the approach could cover : pages and pages. In fact, I for one, would find such : research rewarding from a linguistic angle to say the least. : : And I would love to see that bazaar in Aleppo. I know it was full : of : : henna, textiles, wonderful things 4000 years ago ..... (still : waiting : : for repairs on the transporter beam AND the time machine) : : You've been through a US university? (sorry about Americans .... : : chronically thick subspecies) Which one? I did UCLA and I teach at : : Kent State. : Don't worry, in fact, I graduated about 7 years ago : from University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, with : an MA in Linguistics ( My focus was on Arabic and English) : Too bad I didn't do much in the field, save maybe for teaching : in a few colleges here and there. For the most part, it seems : that majors that are geared towards technology are : hailed as the thing to do nowadays. I developed a hobby : for computers, and spent more time with it ( have been attracted to : the idea of helping people in the middle east bypass censorships : that attempt at restricting freedom of expression). Still, though, : once a linguist, always a linguist. Like you're doomed : to it or something:-) : Now, though, you are helping me refresh my memories : of the field, and the books I have been neglecting : or have already given away. : Next time I'm by a public library, or have some access : to some semitic dictionaries, I'd look into some of the stuff : that you have been referring to. : : My best regards to you : Babaganooj
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