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The HennaPage Oral History Project
Recorded March 29, 2006 at Flagstone Farm, Moreton-on-Marsh, Gloucestershire, UK Catherine Cartwright-Jones: First, I‘d like to go around and have you each
say your name, when you were born, where you were born and where you are
living presently. Monica: Monica Kvam. I was born in Catharine: Catherine Hinton, born in Kiran: Kiran Sahib, born in Riffat: My name is Riffat Bahar. I was born in Kim:
Kim Brennan. Born 1968 August 1, Karam: Karam Applegate…born in Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Thank you. I would also like to know what is your
educational background, and what do you use for your straight job, how, if you
work a straight job, what do you do for an income, so what is your background? Monica: I am a nurse secretary. Catharine: I’m
a housing strategy and research officer and manager. Kiran: Credit controller. Riffat: I'm a full time makeup and henna artist. Kim: Computer operator. Karam:
Accounts clerk. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Thank you. The next question I want to go around
will be where did you see your first henna, what was the situation how did you
react to it? When did you start doing henna yourself? Monica?please. Monica: It was on the Internet. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: The Internet? Monica: Yes Catharine: I’d seen it before but the most significant
experience was at the Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What did you see at the Catharine: I saw a not particularly amazing henna artist who
was selling black henna, and there was a small amount of real henna there. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What ethnicity do you think the black henna artist
might have been? Catharine: Well…they were white. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kiran, when did you first
see henna? How did you experience it first and how were you exposed to it? Kiran: I’ve grown up with it has always been there, for
weddings. Mum used to always have mehndi in the house
as well, from Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat? Riffat: I suppose my earliest recollection of henna would be
five or six years old on Eid. My mother used to make a great big bowl of
henna up and we would just sit there with matchsticks, and cocktail sticks, and
just dot henna on each other, dot, dot, dash, dash. You just couldn’t do any
patterns or flowers. Never heard of cones then. I
don’t even think my mother used to use cones then. She used to henna her hair.
On Eid we
used to get all dressed up in our sparkly clothes and, we always, always had
henna, we just used to do it on each other. I didn’t even know there was such a
thing as a professional henna artist. Because there weren’t the cones I didn’t really like henna,
as a child. I just didn’t like the dot and dashes. And I didn’t like the smell
either, because all we used to do is just mix henna with water, it wasn’t a
very nice smell, it was like horse manure, I suppose. (laughs) And then growing up I saw
it in magazines, and I started to see it on other people done by cones you
could get beautiful intricate patterns, and about ten years ago I took my first
henna course, I’ve done four courses now. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: When did you first see cones? Can you guess a year? Riffat: What year are we in now? 2006 I suppose in the 80’s. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Ok. The metal cones? Riffat: No they were plastic, ready-made cones. We used to
get them from Southall. They cost fifty pence for a
cone. They had a really big seam down them and when you filled the paste in and
cut the hole, it was just awful. It wasn’t very good at all. You couldn’t do
very nice patterns. So I suppose for me the best thing I ever learned was to
make my own cones so I could do the intricate bridal designs that I do now. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: The first paste that you were able to purchase, do
you think it was manufactured in Riffat: Yes. Uh no definitely from Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Do you remember a brand name? Riffat: Um (pauses)
no. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kim, when did you, first experience henna? How did
you react to it? Kim: My first experience when I saw it, was
complete disinterest. Well the first time I saw it in a book, was in a book of Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Can you say about what year that was? Kim: I’d say about eight years from today. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So about ninety-seven? Kim: Sounds about right. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Do you have a recollection of the brand? Kim: It may have been a Shelly cone. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK. Kim: She had this cone and the wonderful person that gave it to her didn’t
understand, yes she loved henna, but had no talent, so it was kind of useless
for her, she asked me to henna her feet, and after I was done my hands were
cramped, they were sore because of the pushing it out, and it was an awful lime
green the color wasn’t very good, but it was so satisfying to have done such a
pattern and the next day she had gone to work and a nice Indian lady had asked
her how much I charged for weddings, and that day I was back in the saddle
again. It was an immediate addiction. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Karam. Karam: Like Kiran and Riffat I've grown up with henna, at weddings parties what
have you, but I’ve always wanted to do it but never got around to it, I went to
my nephew’s wedding last year and watching all this henna and I was like, ”I
really want to do that,”. So I began to get started on it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Question for, particularly Karam,
Kiran, and Riffat, what
family and holidays and occasions, did the henna come out specifically? Kiran first please Karam: It was Diwali, and for weddings. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kiran, your family was
Muslim, Hindu? Kiran: Sikh Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Sikh, Ok. What holidays other than Diwali? Any…or just that one? Karam: Yep just Diwali and for weddings. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat? Riffat: Well I’m Muslim and for us we wore henna on Eid and, if we
were going to a wedding. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…any other holidays? Riffat: No. Karam: I’m a Sikh and it was for Diwali and for weddings. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK.. Kiran: I lied…sorry…Karva Chauth as well, sorry. Kiran: That’s because I don’t bother fasting for my
husband. Kim: You don’t? Really? Kiran: No, I know mum used to put it on us for that as well Kim: You don’t do any of that at all Kiran: No Riffat: My mother
never did that. Kim: Really Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So again the three of you, Kiran,
Riffat and Karam. Karam, would you say that your mother and grandmother wore
more or less henna and did or more or less henna than you do? Karen: No, a lot less, a lot less. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Lot less Riffat: Less Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Grandmother? Kiran: A lot less. She’s just…not interested Riffat: Well we were the only family that came to Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So you came with out your mother? Riffat: No came with my parents, but our family, um we were
the only ones that left Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat, I would like you
to talk, please about the years you were a young girl in school, tell us what
years you remember, what those years were and what incidents you remember,
surrounding your choice to use or to not use henna.  Riffat: "You just couldn't celebrate the fact that you were Asian."
Riffat: I can’t remember the year, I left school in 76. I
was 16 and all the years previously having been the only Asian girl in my
school, I grew up when there were not a lot of Asian people at all in Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So, through the late sixties and early seventies,
which would have been the period when the beetles were bringing, back yoga,
vegetarianism and visiting India, there was a reaction against people who were
actually ethnically Indian or Pakistani, and who showed it by how they walked
and how they dressed. Riffat: How they dressed, yeah. I mean we would never wear
our Asian clothes for instance; you just couldn’t celebrate the fact that you
were Asian. Yes. I would say late seventies Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So it was ok for the Beatles but no ok for you? Riffat: If you were actually really Asian then you know,
well in Catherine Cartwright-Jones: When did you see henna becoming acceptable? And how
did that affect you? Riffat: I think…I suppose in the last 15 years. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Beginning in 1990? Riffat: Yeah. I
suppose the generation of children born in this country, like Kiran’s generation…growing up getting married, having henna
done, starting to wear their own clothes, being proud of who they are, speaking
their own language, even, in public. I started to look at it in different eyes
really. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So, you're saying up to '76 certainly you felt terrible
pressure in school, to be white, and Kiran was born
in 77, so she would have been in school during the early eighties, and early
nineties so Kiran did you feel pressure in school to
not be Asian? Kiran: Yep. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Tell me about it please. Kiran: The funny thing was there was a really popular girl
at school also named Kiran as well but and I think
because she acted as if she was white and…you know…she sort of made more effort
with the white people than she did with the Indians she was welcomed with open
arms it was like, “You’re OK. It’s just the other ones we don’t like.” I don’t
really remember the English kids really speaking to me Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What proportion of the students where you were going
to school were white and proportion were Indian? Kiran: Probably about 80% were white, that was in my year…for
the kids born in 77 there was only about probably eight or nine Indian or
Pakistani people. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Were there any West Indian people also? Kiran: Yes. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Were they treated differently? Kiran: Yes they were treated like the English kids, because
of the way they lived. You know…they weren’t cooking curries or anything, or
doing anything differently. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Just out of curiosity were there Indians of West
Indian descent, immigrating in? There is an Indian community, and was this
different or the same? Kiran: Oh yeah. There weren’t any of those children at my
school; it was just West Indians Jamaicans, Indians, Pakistanis, and the
English people. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: You felt that
they were more assimilated, more accepted than you were? Kiran: Yeah. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So when you showed up to school with henna how were
the reactions? Kiran: “That’s disgusting…What is that.?”
Catherine Cartwright-Jones: This lasted until, certainly through the eighties. Kiran: Yeah Catherine Cartwright-Jones: When did you begin to see a change or acceptance? Kiran: Madonna…that was it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Ninety-six or ninety-seven Kiran: Since this it’s just been “Like wow.” I think also
the way people have applied mehndi, the art of
applying it has changed as well. You’re not just applying a blob on your hand…not
using matchsticks anymore. So because the patterns are so pretty these days,
the English people actually sort of sit up and take notice. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Ok so you feel that henna changed, and the
appreciation of it changed? And probably broken, a few
barriers? Kiran: Yes, it’s broken a few barriers I think, Yeah Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Karam how was it…what were the reactions when you were in
school? Karam: The school I was at there were a lot of Indian kids
there. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: How many do you think? What percentage? Karam: At least 30 Catherine Cartwright-Jones: That’s a fairly significant minority Karam: It was, yeah. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So after Diwali or after Eid.  Karam: "...they'd say "Eeew...what's that?"
Karam: Weddings, yeah…We would go back with our blobs and
paint, and they’d say “Eew, what’s that?” And you’d
have to try and… Even the teacher would say go and take it off. “We can’t take
it off.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So there was no comprehension of what it was, and
the reaction was negative or mild curiosity? Karam: Yeah it was negative, “Ugh…its looks disgusting.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: At what point did you see an attitude change? Karam: I’d say it was like Kiran
said it was…right about Madonna time, I’d get, um at work now, some of the
women because I am the only Indian person in the whole of the firm where I am
now, when they see this some of the women are like “That’s really nice,” and
other are like not confident at all they’re still negative about it, even now.
Even though they know about it they have seen it on the telly,
they have seen it advertised, they’re still…”Oh no, I couldn’t have that on my
hands.” Kim: I got that today. Karam: Did you? Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Again to the three of you: When you see white kids
lining up…say, at a bad henna artist at street fairs, how do you react to that?
Karam: Bad henna? Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…sloppy, bad henna where they clearly have no clue
as to what they are doing, there making money as fast as they can. How do you
feel? Karam: You feel a little bit disappointed, that you just
don’t really say anything in this area, whatever. Riffat: I don’t mind actually because at least they are
experiencing henna, and henna is not just for traditional Indian bridal work it
is an beautiful art form and that is what opened my
eyes to it. When Madonna come out with her video and
everything it was not just to be worn at weddings, because traditionally it is
just for weddings, or Eid or religious festivals,
just by women, and I think it is nice that it crossed cultures, and it can be
worn. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Now I remember that there were articles in Indian
newspapers and commentary when Madonna did the MTV movie awards after the “Frozen”
video, where she had her henna on and it was very prominently displayed she was
doing some fairly ridiculous dancing, quasi-Hindu, a lot of, I would assume
conservative Hindus had a fit. One of the points was “How dare Madonna use
something that is supposed to be for virgin brides?” All: (laughter) Riffat: Well that’s just a snobby attitude from those
people. You know henna didn’t just come out of Kiran: But a lot of Indian people were like that. Riffat: And especially when men get henna done now when they
have armbands, they say: “That’s not for men. Men shouldn’t be wearing henna
it’s just a female thing.” I don’t agree with them, Karam: We used to just use henna at home when it was on
holidays, we’d get some henna out. We put it on neighbors
kids, their little twins about 4 years old. We put it on them, and they went
home and their mother said “What have you got into?” She scrubbed it and
scrubbed it, and this henna wouldn’t come out and then she came over to our
house, and she goes “What have your children done to my children’s hands?” I
was like, “Its only henna, it will come out in a few days.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Monica, when you first put henna on your hands, or if someone put henna on your hands, and you were
walking around with it, what reactions did you get? Monica: Only positive.
Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Why do you think this was the case? Any ideas? Or did you just happen to run into very happy
people? Monica: Yeah they either don’t react at all or they comment
on it. They like it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Catharine, How did people react to you the first
time you came in with henna on your hands?  Catharine: "...it's a confused reaction..."
Catharine: Most people are a bit confused especially where I am where there’s a very small ethic community. It’s mainly
white people and they want to look but they don’t want to be seen to be
looking, and they want to say something but they're not sure what they should
say. Some people say, “Oh what’s that?” and then have a closer look. Some say,
“Oh, you poor thing what’s wrong with your hands?” Or they say “You’re wearing pretty gloves.” And
I go, “Oh no, it’s henna.” So it’s a confused reaction, but once people know
what it is and I have done my little 20 second explanation then they say, “Wow,
that’s interesting.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kim, how do people react when you go swanning about in saris and henna…hugely obviously a red
haired, Canadian white girl? Catharine: I often get mistaken for Hindu, I am assumed that I
am married to an Indian man, and usually positive reaction to confused. I don’t
get a lot of anything else, either way, and I get a
lot of men in Riffat: But they couldn’t believe a white girl had done
henna, on her hands? Kim: I get a lot of that, there was even one time, somebody had grabbed my
hand, I was almost like a doll. They had grabbed my
hand yanked it, were examining it and only talked to her [indicating Riffat], “When, did you…did you do this henna? How did you
do this?” I might have had well not have been there, it was assumed that this
wonderful lady took pity on a poor dumb white girl and did a beautiful job, I
wasn’t even spoken to until afterwards. It really was quite funny. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK...Let's go into...back all the way around again is
there a person, a time or place where you would never do the henna, Monika if
someone would come up to you. Or in a situation where you’re they’re with henna
cone, and someone says ‘"I want it," and you say are like "Henna...what? No, I’m not
going to do it." Can you ever see a place or time that would happen, or did you
ever end up doing henna you really wish you hadn’t? Monica: It’s hard to say because I’ve only done henna on
myself, so I do not have the experience. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Have you ever had henna on and kept your hands in
your pockets hoping no one would notice? Monica: No. (laughter) Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Catharine? Catharine: At my last job interview, I did get the job but I
did have the remnants of henna on my hands, I sort of sat with my hand covered,
but by the end of the interview, it was totally OK and they didn’t say anything.
They had seen my website because I’d obviously put that in my CV so they knew I
did it and it didn’t count. They didn’t notice, they
didn’t mind so it was OK. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Kiran, is there a person or place where you just would not pull
out a henna cone or was there a place where did henna and you thought, “I
shouldn’t have been there or I shouldn’t have done it?” Kiran: No. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat? Riffat: Well I do, a lot of
corporate events. Big companies will have big parties, they hire me as a henna
artist, and I get a lot of drunk people coming up to me, and they “…just want a
tattoo anywhere, down there, you know…” And I say no to that obviously. One guy
wanted a bar code across his forehead. Some of my henna friends have done henna
on some people’s faces, but I thought he probably wouldn’t appreciate it waking
up in the morning with a big henna tattoo across his forehead, so I don’t do
drunk people if they ask for silly places..and
children under 6 I don’t do. Especially at Indian weddings I’ll get a mother
with a little baby in her arms, and she asks, ‘oh can you just do a little dot
or flower on her hand’, and I just politely say no. So I wouldn’t do them. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Kim, when have there been times where it was just,
“No, this is not going to happen.” Kim: The only thing I can think of off the top of my head, when I am doing a
festival, an event or a party, there is inevitably a 14 to 16 year old child,
that wants the Playboy bunny in very low or inappropriate place, at which point
I lie and say I don’t know what it is and I don’t know how to do it and I’m not
going to. And I don’t put names on
children, because that is just like a pedophile open flag. I don’t do rude
places…not really, I’ve done women for full body…pretty much…except for the
obvious. I wouldn’t do guys, I’m very shy about like if its
not very appropriate, and I don’t take private appointments with men…ever. And
that’s about it…really. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Karen? Karam: I haven’t done any. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…good stuff. Around again.
When was your absolute favorite time to do henna and what
was your best experience? Monica? Even if it is henna on your own hands, or
being here (laughter) Monica: Yeah being here. Catharine: The Big Chill festival…I’ve been going for a few
years now and its pretty full on, it’s a huge amount
of work but I’ve now got repeat customers who come to the field where I’m at
and they’re waiting for me. They see me… Catherine Cartwright-Jones: what is the Big Chill festival, please? Catharine: It’s a music festival in Ledbury,
in Herefordshire, and it’s based around a lot of art, new music…things people
perhaps haven’t heard before. A lot of fairly famous DJs go and play there. But
they do sort of special sets…more about what they want to do rather than what
the people want to hear so it is sort of interesting. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What sort of patterns do you do when you do that
festival? Catharine:
I take along a few books, I take along photographs, I’ve
got quite a big display. We’ve got some photos but generally I always put the
design of the festival on my hand, and most people say, “I’d like something
like that” or “What can you do for this amount of money?” and “I want it to be
like that.” I’ve noticed a change. The
first year I did it everyone wanted tribal…everyone wanted very symmetrical
designs. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What year would that be? Catharine: That would be 3 yrs ago or so…2002. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: That is a good question I would like to come to. Have
you seen pattern preferences change? But we’ll get back to that question. Kiran, what was the best ever, most wonderful, henna
experience you ever had? Kiran: Last night (laughter) Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…what made it good for you? Kiran: I’ve had a really, really nice time here and it’s nice learning from everybody. I learned a lot from Riffat yesterday, a lot about intricate designs. I learned
a lot from you today, about the history of henna and the harquus
and everything else. And its just nice getting to actually meet people that you
talk to by e-mail occasionally, or, y’ know you sort of hear from…not personally but by sort of
looking at the forum every day you see what Catherine has to say, its nice to
actually meet the person, in the flesh…Kim..all of you and Monica as well. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…other than last night I do need to know some
other time that is very significant. Kiran: I can’t think of anything that was really, really
significant, to be completely honest with you. I love doing bridal mehndi. Last week, Friday was really nice, and I had a
really nice family I was doing it for. I did the bridal mehndi
and then I did everybody else afterwards. It was nice,
because the family was very polite…no one was really pushing you or pissing you
off or anything. That was nice but nothing really sort of sticks out because I
think because once you’ve done one, they sort of all blend in. The bad ones
stick out, though. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Has there been a wedding that was just…you want to
go home and hide for a while? Kiran: There probably has…I’m just trying to think which
one, though. There was one that I did last year…a Pakistani bride. Her family were really strict, and they sort of did my head in
after a while because they were just like, “…you can’t do this, you can’t do
that…” You can’t really sort of talk properly either. You couldn’t really
discuss anything with the bride because the bride had to stay really, really
quiet. She wasn’t allowed to say much. Another one was one that I did in
January where she just kept going on and on, just talking about the greatness
of God, and all the rest of it and you know. I was
like, “Let me get out of here now and hide.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…that’s interesting. Riffat? Riffat: I've got two, actually. My ultimate henna gig, I
suppose, was during the Queen’s jubilee visit to Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Kim, can you recall something spectacularly
wonderful? Kim: They really do all kind of blend in, but the one that I can think of was…not
only did I get great pictures, but the bride was sweet and funny and smart and
charming. They were quite well off, and they had tented the whole backyard, and
there was a DJ, and it was catered, and instead of being separated from
everybody, she pulled out, of the house…we put a wicker couch in the middle of
everything, including the dance floor that they had built on their lawn. They
put cloth down on it and everyone sat on pillows and all the ladies sang, and I
did, their henna right in the middle of everything. Including.me
and, the bride liked the same songs so while she was drying, a couple times we
were like, dancing. So it was just fun all the way around. I was treated
completely like I was a member of the family. I even went home with a doggie
bag. They couldn’t imagine I was even going to go home with out feeding my
husband, because he had picked me up. So it was not as far as pattern, et
cetera, but for just overall wonderful people and experience, I think it was my
most fun. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What was the ethnic origin of that family? Kim: Hindu, and it was absolutely… Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Can you guess a region they came from or were they
Canadian born? Kim: She was Canadian born. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: and the family that was hosting this was? Kim: I’m not exactly sure. But they sure were wonderful people. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Karam, what was your best
experience? Karam: I don’t know because I’ve only started a few weeks
ago. I do enjoy practicing at the career center. I just take a couple of left
over cones and I just practice on them, and I really enjoy that, and the girls
seem to like it as well. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What ethnicity are the girls who seem to enjoy it? Karam: They are mostly Sikh girls. They are very friendly
with my daughters as well. They think it’s great. One day hopefully I’ll get to
do brides as well. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: For the people here who have been doing henna for a
long time. Kiran, I think you
qualify for that. Let’s start with Catharine. ou’ve been at it for a couple of years, and you had
mentioned seeing the character of patterns requested change. I’m curious…what
patterns are requested, and to what extent do you have to explain what henna is
to the public? Catharine: When I first started, doing the fairs and festivals
I do, I made the mistake of taking too many designs, and people couldn’t decide.
They didn’t really know what they wanted because, it was perhaps the first or
second time they’d got henna. So they weren’t sure what they wanted either, and
so most people would go for something, tribal or something very safe, depending
on who it was, that was asking. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Safe as in unobtrusive or safe as in culturally
accessible? Catharine: I think in, always something very small or something
on the upper arm or something inside the arm or on the shoulder. Now I take
fewer designs, I take more of my own designs, and most people will sort of home in on what they think…”I want something like that…Could
you do this…Could you do that…” And I think that’s where I get a lot of my
success because I can say, “Yes I can add the extras. It doesn’t have to be the
exact like it is on the page.” And people say, “I’ve just bought this ring can
you do something that will match this ring?” An I say,
“Well I’ll try.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Kiran you’ve been doing
henna long enough and you've seen it since your childhood. How have you seen it
change? Kiran: I’ve seen it change from blobs, to actual patterns
like we’re doing now. As Riffat mentioned earlier on,
we used to use matchsticks and cocktail sticks to do mehndi,
and I used to try and do patterns with those, and it used to take so long, to
get even a small pattern going. And now it is so easy to do, you know you’ve
got a cone and that’s it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: what do you think is driving the change? What makes
people want more fancy patterns? What makes henna artists attempt more complex
patterns? Kiran: Its more the sort of publicity of people like Ash
Kumar, because since he’s sort of come out, because of all the patterns he’s
gotten, I think henna is more in your face now, as you’ve seen in all the
magazines, and things as well, you know. People are looking at the designs in
there and are like, “Wow,” and…you know “It does look nice and its not sort of as bad as we think it is.” And I mean the
colors people are getting now are much better than that nasty sort of orange
color you used to get before. The Henna Page has helped enormously. It’s helped
so many henna artists, not the ones that are in the magazines. It’s helped
people like me and like Riffat…Karam
as well. You sort of know how to get a decent color. It’s showed you how to
actually do the patterns and everything properly. Just little
things that make a lot of importance. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: How easily available was information on how to
improve?  Kiran: "Nobody wanted to share information with you."
Kiran: It wasn’t, nobody wanted to share information with
you. Nobody wanted to tell you how to get a dark color. No one wanted to tell
you have to do silly little things like flicks. Nobody would actually sit down
and explain to you. There was one lady I used to work in her salon, just
learning the basics on you know how to wax and thread and everything and I kept
begging her and begging her, “Can you show me how you do the mehndi,” and “I’m really, really interested,” and she never
ever…she wouldn’t take me out with her, to sort of see her do the work. But the
funny thing now; I’m not trying to sound big-headed, but when I sort of go into
her shop now and I have henna on my hand, and you see the pictures she’s got on
her walls, it’s just like “Oh, well, whatever,” and she’ll sort of look at my
work and say, “Oh why don’t you come in one day and, we can sit down and we can
learn from each other.” (laughter) Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So, why do you think the information was not shared
before? Kiran: Indians in general can be very secretive about
things like this. They’re scared of the competition. They don’t like that. They
don’t want people to be able to sort of go out and earn money doing the same
thing that they’re doing. There’s another lady she’s quite famous in the Indian
community. She does mehndi and all the rest of it. I
was doing a bridal last year. My cousin was getting married. I got back to my
cousins house at about twelve o’clock at night. She’d had her mehndi done in the day time, and it was this lady who had
done her henna for her, and when I looked at it I was just like, “Oh my God!”
because I’d never actually seen this woman’s work, I’d never looked at it up
close, and it was really bad. It was disgusting. The next day; the color was of
the oranges that you’ve got there. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So, this woman who did incredibly bad henna, what do
you think her ethnic origin was? Kiran: She was Gujarati Indian. They’re notoriously…they’re
known not to share information, and unless you pay them a ridiculous amount of
money, they wont teach you anything. She charged my cousin I think 450 pounds
to do the henna. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Can you continue on with that Riffat? Riffat: But,even..you
know…these people…even when they teach you to do henna and they charge you a
phenomenal amount to go and do their course…and I’ve actually done about four
henna courses now, they’ll show you, everything but what goes in their mixture.
They’ll leave one vital ingredient out. So your mixture will never be as good
as theirs. Now, I originally never went into bridal henna because I just
thought I could be the best henna artist…I’m naturally artistic anyway, I can
do lots of pretty patterns…but the color doesn’t come out because I haven’t
gotten the right paste, I’ve literally ruined that brides’ wedding day because
henna is such an important part of their wedding day.. The first thing that
happens, when anyone sees a bride is, “Ooh shows me your henna.” They’ll
literally grab her hands to see her henna. Then it’ll be, “Oh that’s a nice
outfit,” “That’s nice makeup,” but it’s always the henna first. I actually used
to buy my paste ready made, form a woman in south Southall.
Again, she would never ever tell me what was in her paste. I would buy her
cones and sometimes they would be nice sometimes they weren’t. She gave me an
old batch and I though this is terrible. I’ve got best friends that have been
doing henna a lot longer than me, and I used to say to them, “Can I come out
with you? You know…I’ll and sit there and watch? I don’t want to do anything, I just want to get the experience.” But again,
wouldn’t let me, wouldn’t take me out with them and they wouldn’t tell me where
they got their powder from or what was in their mixture. It just made me even
more determined, and when I discovered the henna page I found all the
information myself, and I did the experiments, lots of research and everything. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: It makes a difference having the chemistry link. Riffat: Definitely. Two of the best things I learned as I
said earlier, was making my own cones, and getting the right supply of powder
and the right mixture. And it’s all so easy when you find it out. No big
secret, no big rocket science or anything, and it’s
all there on the henna page for free. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So when the secretive people want to teach classes
where they give away all but one of their secrets, how much do they charge for
this class that gives all but one secret? Riffat: They are going for about 600 pounds. Kiran: A thousand pounds. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: For how long? Riffat: They sort of spread it out…stretch it out over six
weeks but you get about two hours a week. In a whole class full of people I’ve
known people who’ve done courses and they still don’t know how to roll cones,
or they’ve come away with not having the confidence to actually do henna. So
there just like moneymaking… Kiran: Scams. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…Kim, how do you see its change since you’ve
started working? What different patterns, different characters, what are people
asking for now that they didn’t ask for in the beginning? Kim: You know, I’ve been really, really lucky that most of the time, when I
do henna, even when I am doing it for a Bar
Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah the
patterns I put out are of my own and I tell them most of it falls out of my
brain and onto the skin and that’s all of these photos. So I get a lot of
artist’s choice. Aside from that then I get the tribal, but I’m getting a lot
less of that now. Now I was getting the tribal and a little butterfly, and I’m
still getting that but the tribal has totally dropped off and I’m getting a lot
more, “I’d like something Indian.” I get that a little more: “Give me something
Indian,” or “I like the peacocks,” or, “I saw National Geographic and I really liked
what this bride had on.” So I do get a lot more ethnic designs or ethnic fusion
patterns, and as far as…like when you were talking…I just thought…when I was
sort of starting to do henna…a lot of ladies…I never really learned from anybody
in Winnipeg, and they would come up to me and go “How did you get the color?” And
I would tell them everything, and they would look at me like “Uh huh…like,
fine…don’t tell me,” because it was just too simple and they were looking for the
magic ingredient and I must be lying to them. Because they
constantly lied to each other. Or they’ll be friends just long enough to
get what they considered the secret and then they’re out the back door. One
lady who I guess was my biggest competition…I guess she doesn’t do a very good
job at all she’ll do what she does, and several ties she has gone to a wedding
where I’m hennaing the bride, and she’s doing the little kids at a rickety
table in a dark room and she’s not been very happy with that, and she would
never talk to me before, now she wants to be my best friend and wants to come
out with me and do henna. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kim, tell me about some of the times when you’ve
walked in as a henna artist, and there has been the, “What is this white girl
doing here?” I want to hear these.  Kim: "...the bear on the bicycle syndrome..."
Kim: It doesn’t happen a whole lot most of the time. I call it the “bear on
the bicycle syndrome,” because they know that I’m white, they’re like, “You
wouldn’t believe what I’ve found,” so when I arrive most people are very
interested in watching, because some people are sort of like, “No, you’re just kidding me. That couldn’t be a white girl.” They
just don’t...and the worst case…they just know it could possibly be me and in
others there’s acceptance. But the worst one was one lady who did hire me sight
unseen, and when I came to the door she had the plastic smile on, the, “Oh my
God, how do I get this woman out of my living room without looking rude,” and
she just had terror in her eyes and I
don’t blame her. In her eyes if you were getting married, and the woman getting
married showed up in a burlap sack, you’d be pretty nervous too. Well, how
could I possibly know what I was doing when I was white.
I sat down. I just bombarded her with some patterns, and I started by the end
of the first hand she had it raised and was like “Oh my God, isn’t this
beautiful,” and everything else and I was just about adopted, but she could not…she
was looking like a rabbit trying to escape. She was just
wanting me out of her house so bad, when I got out there. She just
couldn’t believe she had managed to get this person in her house to do her
henna. She got over it but it was terrifying for me because, I was convinced I
was about to be bounced out of the house. I was convinced it was that close.
When she opened the door she was looking around like, “Where is the henna
artist? Are you the assistant?” “No I’m the artist,” and she was not pleased at
all. Not even a little. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK. Now some questions for the people who are
regularly doing this for money, and have cone it for some time. What do you
average per hour when you’re doing your henna work and, what proportion
of your income do you think comes from henna? Catharine? Catharine: A very small proportion of my income, because by the
time I’ve paid for the insurance, the equipment, the training, the books, the trip
to India that I’m going to do, there’s probably not much of a profit. I can
range from making anywhere from 200 pounds in a day to making 600 pounds in a
day in a fair or festival situation. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK. Tell me what the median income would be in the Catharine: Probably, what would you say about 100 pounds a day.
Well, minimum wage is 5 pounds 85. Kiran: My wage per day is about 90 pounds per day with my
straight job. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: And when you go out and do henna you earn about
what? You don’t have to discuss it if you don’t want to. Kiran: Well on Friday I made about 600 pounds, in 5 hours. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So it’s very attractive when you can get… I am
asking these not to be difficult, I know that there are people studying women’s
economies, who are really going to want figures if they possibly can. Kiran: I am earning a lot more than my husband is earning
at the moment, A lot more money doing henna and obviously working full time. We
found it very difficult, I was living with my in-laws for six years and we moved
into our own house in September and I would not have been able to afford the
furniture, or a few of the things for the house that I’ve done without my henna
money. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So it’s seasonal work? Kiran: Yes it is seasonal. Summer is really, really busy. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So you were able to really augment your household
income, for a few months a year. Catharine: Yeah… Catherine Cartwright-Jones: is yours also seasonal? Catharine: Yes, it is very seasonal. I also choose specific
fairs and festivals I work at to ear money because that means I can go and
indulge, in doing charity events and help raise money, or doing freebies just
to raise the awareness in the area that I live because the awareness is so low.
I could make a lot more money, and I know if I compare myself to other henna
artists who are, often male, often very, very well enshrined in the whole
festival circuit…for them it is their way of life and they charge a lot more
money than I do. They have different designs to me I so I know I am filling the
gap really. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat, henna is most of
your income at present? Riffat: Makeup and henna I would say is not equally split. I
used to do more makeup. It used to very seasonal…June to August was my wedding
season. Before then and after that I really didn’t have anything but now I
would say I’ve been doing weddings since January. Every week.
I get about two or three weddings. April’s coming up. I think I’ve got about
ten hennas booked, just for April. Whenever there’s a Bank Holiday in Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What do you think you can make in a day’s henna
work? Riffat: Well I don’t charge per hour. I can do two full
bridals in a day, and I could make about 600 pounds. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kim? Kim: Well I could only dream of that. I have a very small pool to pick from.
I usually…depending on whether I am hired out by an agent for some events…then
I can make Canadian about $235 to $2-300 and something dollars per the evening,
and that’s about four hours. For a bride I charge by the hour at 95$ an hour
and that’s for semi-heavy palms, light back, light feet. Then it goes up from
there. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: What would be minimum wage in Kim: I think we’re at $10 an hour. So it’s still good…like there’s nothing
wrong with it…but it’s sporadic, and I do this because I have a passion for it
and I gotta admit I don’t take every gig that comes
along. I prefer brides and I prefer things where I’m going to be able to do more
of what I like to do…rather than…I don’t do a lot of festivals, I don’t really
enjoy the festivals that much so I tend to avoid them, but, the money is there,
if I just wanted want to just make more money, festivals are definitely the way
to go because we can earn…I did one festival one year and I think for the day…ten
hours that I was there…I think I made about $900, so the money’s there, if you
want to do it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So when…I believe I am hearing that each of you
are now putting more hours into doing henna,
and making more than you used to. Kim: Oh yes. Catharine: Yes. Riffat: And then I started teaching, so its
not just applying henna. I’ve started doing henna classes as well. Catharine: I do workshops as well. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Last question, going around, what is your very
favorite thing about doing hennaand what do you
absolutely dislike about it? Monica. Monica: I like everything. Catharine: I love everything but the best thing for me is when
somebody says, “My hands are horrible, my feet are horrible. You put the henna
on and then I can’t stop looking at my hands. You’ve made my hands beautiful,”
and I think that’s just so nice to know that you’ve made someone feel good.
What I don’t like about it is it can be absolutely back-breaking, and there’s a
certain point in the day, where you think, “Why am I doing this,” and when
you’ve got all your gear for a festival and it’s the end you’re so shattered
and you just think, “Why am I doing this,” and right away you book the next year
and you get on and you do it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Karam, what’s your
favorite thing about henna and what would you real like to go without? Karam: I think what I’ve experienced…it’s just satisfaction of seeing
someone happy with what they’ve got. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kiran? Kiran: I really hate doing other people, like party henna, I
can’t stand it. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: like corporate parties or… Kiran: No, just sangeet parties. It’s just headache, backache you’re just
knackered the next day. I really, really love doing bridal mehndi. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Can you explain the difference for the tape working
a bride and working a sangeet? Kiran: When you do a bride the patterns are usually pre-picked,
you sit down, you know what’s coming and you know around about how long it’s
going to take. It’s just not too stressful. Doing a sangeet
party, you’ve got little children running around, banging into you and you have
people walking up to you and “Can you add a bit more here. Can I do this. Can I…” It’s just a headache…big,
big headache. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Am I hearing “chaotic and demanding?” Kiran: Yes. Indian people are so demanding its just…just ridiculous. And when you
tell them, “Look that’s gonna be a little bit more.
Five pound more or so,” they say “Can you just do a little bit, please. We’re a
really broke. We haven’t got any money.” It’s like “Don’t ask for it, then.” Catharine: I think that happens anywhere, when I’ve done free
henna and you are just deluged, and you look up and there’s forty or fifty
people trying to get to the front of the queue. And no queuing system works. I
have not found a queuing system that works.. Kiran: No not with Indians. Catharine: Not with anyone! Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Can you comment on that Riffat?
Again, the difference between doing a bridal and a sangeet and handling mad chaos. Riffat: Well I just whip them into line, really. I have got
like a little rough whip. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: You have a whip? Riffat: Yeah. (laughing) I do corporate events and they just get everyone
to queue up. and that
works well really. But, at sangeets, I have a little raffle ticket book and I’ve made a
sign up as well that says I am only there doing 5 or 8 pound designs. I only
put out those designs that cost that much. If they want more I think I’ve just learned over the
years to be firm, and just say, “If you want more that would just be another 5
pounds.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So, at your sangeet they pay per hand? Riffat: They pay per hand and I write it down at the end of
the day. There’s different ways it can be paid. But I think for me having spent
so long of my childhood and my teenage years, being ashamed of being Asian, I
just love doing my weddings and for me it’s brought me back into my own culture
again and I feel like I belong. Finally I’ve done a full circle. And that’s
really, really nice. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: So Kim, you’re obviously doing the circle backwards.
(everyone laughs) Can you add comments on the
differences in between weddings and Sangeets and
handling general chaos? Kim: I’ve really, really lucky that the chaos has been somewhat minimal.
Usually, there’s…I don’t know if I just project helplessness, but, there is
usually some masiji there to protect me, like, “Leave the girl alone, you’ve
already had yours!!” And she’ll shuffle
people off. The worst thing…the worst chaos I ever had was actually at my own
temple, where we did Karva Chauth and
there were two different fights in my line. There was… Catherine Cartwright-Jones: I want to hear about the fights in your line. This
has got to be good! Kim: There was me, another lady, and another lady all doing mehndi, and I felt so bad for them, because my queue was
long and theirs was barely existent and people were popping open my books and
asking them to do my patterns. My patterns are not distinctly Indian. A lot of
it is stuff they’d never even seen before. Most of them don’t have any kind of
art background. It’s “I do this design,” and that’s it. And they were having it
plopped down in front of them and saying, “I want this!” And, needless to say,
what was coming out wasn’t looking like the patterns from the photos in the
books that I’ve done. And their books were all stuff that they’d copied off the
internet or out of books from the library and there were almost no photos of
anything they had done, whereas mine is all stuff that I’ve done…in real books.
The lineups were somebody would cut and there would be a huge line, or a huge
argument, or an old lady who would decide to cut the line but if a child tried
to do it they were just about whapped about the head and sent to the back. I had my face down, so
there wasn’t much I could do about policing the line and I wasn’t going to. It
was like, “Next…and you guys can fight it out.” I was not going to get involved
in that and the thing that was both flattering and felt really, really awful
was when two different times I would hear, “ I don’t want the crappy stuff over
there. I want this one.” Thank you for liking my stuff but we’re all here, I
donate my time to the temple. I didn’t get paid a penny. I was there on my own
to do my bit. I was there doing charity, and they were also there doing it for
free. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: OK…to wrap this up, one question. Would you teach
your daughters to do this and where do you think they’ll be doing twenty years
from now? Monica: Yes. Catharine: Yes, my son and daughter,
get hold of the cones and they practice on themselves, they practice on paper.
They sit and draw. I’ve got a lot of printouts which, because the printer was
running out of ink, my HennaPage books didn’t come
out as I wanted them. They sit and they trace over the drawings, redraw them,
and embellish them and they say, “Mommy, can you do this on me?” And they have
great ideas as well, really nice ideas. They’ll say, ‘I want an empty heart and
I want it surrounded by flowers.’ And I think, “Hmm…that’s a good design.” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kiran, would you teach
your daughter how to do henna? What do you think she’ll be doing in a
generation? Kiran: I’ve got a son and he does exactly the same thing
that Cat’s just mentioned. He’ll grab my cone and he’ll start messing around
with it. He’s only three years old, by the way, so
he’s not doing anything extensive, just like blobs and things like that he’ll
just grab it and does swirls and things like that. And I would teach him henna…he
loves having it on his hands. He likes flowers, and yeah, I would teach him and
if I had a daughter I’d love to teach her as well. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Riffat? Riffat: My daughter, Sabina, she’s eighteen now and just
from watching me roll my cones, mix my paste, she used to just pick up my dead
cones, and just practice, and she’s actually taught herself how to do henna.
When I’ve got big parties…sangeet parties…I’ll actually
take her along with me and she’ll sit there, and she makes quite good money. And
she actually spent a year at beauty college to get into
makeup and henna. So yeah, if she goes
into it I’d be really happy. My little boy who’ss
seven, he helps to mix my paste and he likes to take part whenever I’m getting
my henna ready for jobs. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Kim? Yes, your appropriated daughters. Kim: My appropriated daughters…Shelly loves to get henna, and Puja likes to get henna but is very shy and will say, “Well
whatever you like.” And neither of them have any talent or interest towards it.
They love to get it, but could care less about learning about it. They’re
consumers they are not creators. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Karam, yes, please. Karam: I’ve got two daughters, the older one couldn’t draw
to save her life but the younger one is an artist and she can do minute details
and at my nephews’ wedding she actually copied a henna onto my older daughters
hand and it was absolutely beautiful. I think she would take it up. She loves
it. Riffat: Can I just add a little bit? Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Please… Riffat: Twenty-seven years ago when I first told my father I
wanted to be a makeup and henna artist, he actually started laughing, and he
said why don’t I get a normal job like working in a bank or being a teacher or
being an accountant. He just couldn’t understand how I was going to make a
living doing makeup, or henna which is quite artistic. In Asian culture that
isn’t considered a respectable career. Catherine Cartwright-Jones: No not at all. Riffat: And even my teachers in school at that time, they
had no information at all about henna, about makeup…how to go into that as a
career, and everyone…it seemed like everyone was trying to put me off going
into that career path. But I’m very stubborn and I thought, “No. I’m going to
do this and prove everyone wrong.” And I worked in a factory, saved up the
money, did my course. Henna…a lot of it I’ve taught myself, and henna I’ve
taught myself through magazines, watching people on the internet. And I’m
really glad that I stuck at it. And I can honestly say I love what I do and
when I get paid its like a bonus, you know I’ve sat there I’ve had a chat with
the bride. They have fed me and then they give me some money at the end and it’s like, “Wow!” Catherine Cartwright-Jones: Well I am very grateful that you people were here.
We will be making these recordings and transcriptions available in the future
to those people who are trying to research henna. I think if we keep trying to
keep going at it year after year it will really help researchers and students
to hear first-hand voices of the people who do this craft. Thank you all. Return to the Oral History Project main page
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